Transcript of episode 5: diversity and inclusion | edp.com

We are all agents of change. And in collaboration, we can transform the world. It is now or never! This EDP podcast discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.

Catarina Barreiros: Welcome to another episode of the podcast "It's Now or Never," an EDP podcast about sustainability. Today, we will talk about diversity and inclusion, a topic that involves sustainability, and we will realize why. What are the challenges of this system in connection to diversity and inclusion? What is being done all over the world? We have two specialists on this subject. Fernanda Barata de Carvalho is a visiting university professor focused on innovation, organizational transformation, and management consulting. She spent 24 years at Accenture dealing with matters in the scope of human resources, ethics, and sustainability. She is a trained pharmacist but has worked in the human resources domain and is currently a consultant specializing in diversity and inclusion, the theme of our podcast. With us, we have José Pedro Borges, a psychology graduate from the University of Lisbon. For the last eight years, he has been working at EDP in human resources. In 2019, he took on the position of sub-director of the People Experience Unit, which, among other matters, addresses the issues of diversity and inclusion, so we could not be better advised. Thank you both for being here, and let's start with a difficult question: Why diversity and inclusion are related to sustainability? 

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Can I start? Hi, I'll start by thanking EDP. It's great to be able to talk about diversity and inclusion, about equity. My acquaintances know that this is a crucial topic for me. I'm passionate about this matter and to have peers like José Pedro, who I've already met in other activities, and, for a fact, I know he also likes to explore all these issues. I didn't meet Catarina before, but after a half-hour, I guess I'm already enthusiastic about what Catarina defends and advocates. Let's talk and try to answer the question, why is diversity and inclusion linked to sustainability? I would say that if we go back to the outset of sustainability, there was much talk about the environment, the environmental impact, the economic development. Eventually, some conferences introduced the principle and the social vision in the United Nations, Stockholm, and Rio. The matter is ensuring the quality of life and well-being for all generations, ours and those to come, correct? This sentence is simple, and we all understand it, but it is challenging to implement and ensure its continuity. In essence, we have three principles, the ecological vision, the vision of sustainable and economic development, and the social vision. We must ensure that we all have equal opportunities. When I say all, I mean equal opportunities for all, guaranteeing human rights, access to quality education, and quality health care, that deep down, will allow us to be ourselves. When we consider the 2030 program for sustainable development, dating from 2015 and ratified by the UN, several states, governments, and citizens, these goals ultimately link three stellar areas: the social, the economic, and the environmental components. Hence, seventeen sustainable development goals got defined. We will not spend a lot or invest a lot of time on this theme. But among those seventeen, two are 100% focused on diversion.

José Pedro Borges: More directly, correct?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: And towards diversity and inclusion. The 5th is gender equality, and the 10th is inequality reduction. But thinking of others, this theme is always present: Reduction; the eradication of poverty and hunger.

Catarina Barreiros: The access to energy is also in the [overlay of voices] yes.

José Pedro Borges: [overlay of voices], related.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: [00:05:00] Having access to energy, exactly! Therefore, if everyone has access to decent employment, very honestly, I can't think about sustainability and not interconnect it with diversity and inclusion and without thinking about it as a whole.

José Pedro Borges: Interconnected. Arm in arm, right? That's it! The significance of sustainability is an attribute or characteristic of something permanent, continuous, and durable. We can apply the word sustainability to economies and companies. Today it is proven by numerous surveys, with plenty of evidence, that diversity and inclusion are enhancers of innovation, creativity, solutions to complex problems, and different ways to see the subjects, so I'm with Fernanda. I can't see the issues unconnected, on the contrary. I think diversity and inclusion are inherent to the very concept of sustainability at all levels.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, I think it is impossible not to agree with this vision. We are human beings, are we not? We live in society, don't we? All that we do will have significance in society, and society is wide-ranging. 

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: And it is naturally diversified, and therefore makes every sense to me that it may be so. You mentioned here some fascinating aspects. What does it imply, what does this diversity, this inclusion mean? But if we have to be concrete, what is the setting? What are the different backgrounds? The one of diversity and inclusion is not unique. What are we talking about, specifically?

José Pedro Borges: Right.

Catarina Barreiros: When we talk about diversity and inclusion, how can this be applied?

José Pedro Borges: Yes, maybe I can start, Fernanda. I think, first, we must inquire as to why the word inclusion now arises. The I, for inclusion, is always associated with the D, for diversity, which is a set of characteristics existing in our society that can originate several situations, social exclusion, privilege, or discrimination. It is often in this context that we also detect them. When we talk about diversity and inclusion and come to the word inclusion, we are talking about reinforcing or elevating for what it brings in added value. And then yes, also for economies, companies, and society in general. When we talk about inclusion, we mean equal opportunities, fair treatment, providing a voice to a sense of belonging, and this component, in my perception, actually makes the difference. In terms of addressing the proportions of diversity, there will be many, with different focuses, different urgencies. Some of these must be seen on a global scale and from that perspective. Such is the case of gender, which is widely covered, from the theme of the Gender Pay Gap to other issues. Then other aspects may be more localized, more present, or evident in some geographies or economies, but they will eventually arise. Another intriguing factor is that we cannot separate these dimensions, can we? These are not boxes. We can talk about the intersectionality of these themes. And that more and more are present in our concerns, correct? How we speculate the correlation between the various dimensions acquires more relevance. Therefore, I do not think or do not see diversity or its dimensions as categories. I see them as focuses of action and attention, demanding commitment to creating a more diverse and inclusive environment. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. An excellent perspective, or these are promising perspectives. We were just talking, Fernanda, before we got into studio.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Yes.

Catarina Barreiros: I heard many times, as a layperson on this subject, the Gender Pay Gap and everything related to gender equality, but I hadn't remarked on some things you said today, and by the way, I have numbers here. Therefore, I will present them. We are also talking about the divergence between women with children, women without children, white women, black women. There is this study from 2019, which said, "Throughout a career, the gap, the difference in payment, between an average black woman and an average white woman can amount to €1,000,000.00." I wasn't aware of this. Therefore, I thank you for making me realize it. We are talking about gender equality, but we are also referring to other matters associated with it. [00:10: 00]. As we said before, these are not boxes, and each geography has its issues. What do we have to work on at the moment, more specifically in Portugal? That is our subject.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Of course. 

Catarina Barreiros: What is most necessary, what is the scope in which is urgent to work?
Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Catarina, I would say that the goal is to stop seeing inclusion and diversity as silos. When we think of the business world, regarding this theme, we take gender, people with disabilities, inabilities, generations into consideration. We have this example here. I think this podcast is an extraordinary example of the exchange of opinions connecting generations. We have yours, which are the Millennials, and mine. I am a Baby boomer.

José Pedro Borges: Millennial as well. 

Catarina Barreiros: Millennial at fight.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: In fact, we no longer see all these pillars as silos. They are interconnected. We talk a lot about the gender pay gap. We have to think that the gender issue is an issue that 'we are always talking about this.' We are half of the world.

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: If we think about it, when we are pregnant, before we know the sex, there is a 50% chance that the child will be a girl or boy, so this is something that we should consider more. Numerous studies state that in Europe, the gender pay gap is a 16% difference. Globally, we talked about it just now.

José Pedro Borges: About 30%, above 30%.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Above 30%, but that's not all. Later, we concluded that black women end up earning less than white women. Or for example, women with children have a certain wage level because they amount to fewer promotions, have maybe different ratings. Therefore, this ends up reflecting on their compensation.

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: I believe we have to think, maybe, in terms of connection. We can also go back to what José Pedro mentioned regarding diversity and inclusion. There is a metaphor that I regret not having thought about it. I am in love with this metaphor: "Diversity is inviting me to a party, and inclusion is inviting me to dance." And this makes all the difference.

Catarina Barreiros: Wow, good metaphor.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: This makes all the difference, because I can be at the party, but in fact be in a corner, correct? Not to participate. Therefore, I think that respecting diversity is to respect the uniqueness of each one, to try somehow to accept other ideas. We talk a lot about gender as well. Diversity is gender, race, LGBTQI, generations, multiculturalism.

José Pedro Borges: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: It's much more. 

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: It's much more than that. We all have different characteristics.

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Regarding inclusion, it is an action and a gesture. I'm inviting you to do an exercise here. There is the pandemic, but we also have some distance here.

José Pedro Borges: Yes, we have some distance.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: If I reach out to you, what do you want to do? Extend your hands to me as well. Therefore, involvement is not enough. I am just inviting you to come to my circle.

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: If the person denies involvement, that is not inclusion. 

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Inclusion involves some reciprocity, there has to be movement. I have to respect José Pedro or Catarina, and you must respect me as well. And this is related to what José Pedro also said, just now. If I feel that I can be unique, that I can be myself, that I am already, we are all.

José Pedro Borges: We are all.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: If I really feel that I'm not afraid to express my opinions, I don't feel embarrassment, I know I won't be judged. Puff! It's a boom, right? Creativity awakes, and my ideas out of the box end up emerging. The company [00:15:00] will increase its intellectual capital and, therefore, generate much more innovation. 

José Pedro Borges: No doubt.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: I think if we reconsider all of this, it is rather interesting.

José Pedro Borges: For me, it was an interesting point when Fernanda said that it is not only a matter of proportions. As we said just now, each of us is unique. It is a combination of various themes, various issues, various life experiences, demographic dimensions, cognitive dimensions and I would say that in the end, or the benefit, the last thing we have is the diversity of thinking. This diversity of thought is what makes us generate ideas, makes us share experiences, makes us add value to the companies. And in the world. It is in this aspect that inclusion can make a difference. As Fernanda said through the metaphor, the dynamics of the party, the invitation to the table, speaking up, but more than that, listening, right?

Catarina Barreiros: [agrees].

José Pedro Borges: Listen to the voice as well and give value to what is being said. And in that aspect, I think this is the way we all have to take. It is not about examining diversity to check its dimensions. We have to see the matter of inclusion and think about how we, as a society, a country, and a company, can provide opportunities and bring forward the added value each one has.

Catarina Barreiros: This is very interesting because I think that, again, from a lay perspective, but from the side of those who have been in companies or have heard about it from the company's point of view, there is a lot of fear that opening up the conversation and opening up the game will bring about a destabilisation of the status quo and people will say "No, but we've always done things this way, now this is going to destabilise", but from what I've come to realize, in promoting inclusion and diversity, it actually brings benefits for companies, isn't it? It brings not only an opening of thought and an opening of ideas, there it is. The brain storming, isn't it?

José Pedro Borges: Hum-hum.

Catarina Barreiros: When we do brainstorming with people like us, maybe we reach a level, if we do it with people different from us, we reach the world, isn't it? I mean, we came to, and I would like to realize, from the side of those who actually work on this issue, what are the benefits that inclusion brings, specifically, for inclusion and the promotion of diversity and inclusion, in diversity in companies in the world at the individual level. Because there are certainly studies on this, which is what we all gain, at the level, for example, in companies, which is where there is sometimes more resistance to having this opening of a conversation. There is what Fernanda said a little while ago, which is: "Now it seems that we are always talking about gender equality," first is a conversation that has yet to be made, unfortunately, isn't it? And secondly, companies also earn from this, don't they? What do they earn?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Of course. In fact, there are many studies, so we would be here for a long time.

José Pedro Borges: We could state it.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Usually the studies are carried out by McKinsey and Accenture's, by Deloitte, by Price, by PwC, we also have studies by Gartner, we have studies by Catalyst, the European Commission itself, recent times have launched, once again, studies, even now with post-pandemic data, which makes us think a lot about some setbacks that existed, that did not exist, that exist at the moment, but I would say that at the level of companies and because I worked a lot on this, finally, on this concept, in fact, on this site, we might think, an increase in people's engagement.

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Of your employees, because if people feel that they can be themselves, they are obviously much more motivated, we can think about increasing their capacity, in their financial part, in their financial health, in their sustainability, because people are happier, in short, happier they are more productive, if they are more productive they generate better results if they do, this ultimately ends up being a cycle, isn't it?

José Pedro Borges: Cycle.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: They generate more results, generate more sales capacity, and, therefore, more financial health. We can think that in fact, the increase in rent is exponential, at various levels, at the level, for example, with regard to competition, 80% of the purchasing decision is for women. I don't know if you have it.

Catarina Barreiros: Generically, in the purchase categories?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Generically. There is a study and I can then send you, so if in reality companies are aware of all these underlying issues, they realize how much they benefit. [00:20: 00] Then there is attractiveness, right? If I, these new generations, the Millennials and now Generation Z, who are entering the workforce, are much more concerned with all that is contractual sustainability.

José Pedro Borges: I think it's already a yes or yes, almost, isn't it?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Exactly.

José Pedro Borges: It's almost a yes or yes.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Even when they go to interviews and go to the sites, they will already look for what companies do in those areas.

José Pedro Borges: No doubt.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: And therefore this is very interesting, it is indeed very interesting, because it allows the attraction of better talents, allows retention, that people are more, ultimately, more content, more satisfied. A much smaller turnover, therefore benefits, this all, there are many, Catalyst has very good studies, regarding the benefits it can bring, therefore it is.

José Pedro Borges: Of course.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: We just want to really study a little bit also and understand how important this is.

José Pedro Borges: That's it and then these figures and this evolution, this perception also of impact, to be part of the business skies of the companies themselves, isn't it? So that we can understand where we are walking and where we want to walk. I, this topic, nowadays, clearly has more than evidence, in terms of studies, as we were referring to, from all entities, even the academy itself is starting to work a lot on this theme, it's also true, the World Economic Forum, positions the theme of inclusion as one of the three priority factors to address in the world, isn't it? And that it must converge with others, of course, but that is, that it has that importance and that relevance. In companies and in the day-to-day of companies, everything that Fernanda enunciated is, in fact, part of this business case that must be monitored and we realize that it actually has, or that this investment by companies in the themes of inclusion, has this impact, from the internal to the external level of reputation, but I think the world is also different. And as the world is different and this speed of things that happen and the complexity of the world itself, also forces companies to be able to look at this complex world as well. And we can only look at the complex world if we have diversity and inclusion within companies. And if we manage to bring different points of view, in order to be able to respond in the best way possible to the problems that arise and that appear to us more regularly, to the problems, challenges, and missions that companies themselves also have. Therefore, I would say that for EDP, this is our great milestone, is to be able to create an inclusive context, capable of bringing the best of each one to the table, but with this benefit linked to the business, we are able to make every problem, every challenge we have, let us have the people prepared and the teams with inputs, with diversity, with all of this, who can look at the problem and find the best solutions, therefore, and that aspect that Fernanda referred to also, this theme of diversity and the fact, for example, of women, isn't it? Of the 80% purchase decision, I believe that was the number, it is in women. Well, if we don't have women within companies who are able to give an opinion, then what would it be.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course.

José Pedro Borges: Because we would always be, perhaps, only working for the 20% of the opinion. And whoever says this, speaks of the other dimensions that we have all been talking about here and that I think are important, so no doubt.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Anyway, let me just add that the benefits only arise, if the leadership, has a lot committed, has a lot.

Catarina Barreiros: Invested.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Otherwise, it won't work, let's not make a mistake.

Catarina Barreiros: It cannot be on paper.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: It's not worth having defined policies, having the business case, which José Pedro also said, prepared, having anything on paper or in our heads, it's not enough. Therefore, or ours, leadership and when I speak in leadership, I speak in top leadership.

José Pedro Borges: No doubt.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: It's not worth having defined policies, having the business case, which José Pedro also said, prepared, having anything on paper or in our heads, it's not enough.

Catarina Barreiros: That's not fashion.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: No, it's not fashion, no, it's in fact something that benefits companies, benefits people, benefits governments and, therefore, they have to not only give their approval but also get involved, commit themselves.

José Pedro Borges: No doubt.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: EDP does indeed have an area of inclusion and diversity, today you can see many companies with this, in short, with this area already very solid, already very developed, but the fact is that we need more, we need more cases, we need to talk more about the topic, we need to make the top leaders feel that this is an issue [00:25:00] in society at the moment and if they are not prepared for it, perhaps the results of the companies themselves begin to suffer.

José Pedro Borges: True, and I think these are, I mean, the factor, this business case theme, of following the sponsorship from the top numbers, is also undoubtedly a decisive factor and then the whole way in which the theme is worked within the organization, I can give you an example, Fernanda was mentioning that there are several companies that have a diversity of inclusion area, the theme of the diversity of inclusion is in fact within my area, or the area that I lead, but in fact, it is in all the themes that we manage and I in 2019, now I am confused by the years, because with the theme of the pandemic.

Catarina Barreiros: It's been a year and a half that looked like five.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: [Overlay of voices] is true.

José Pedro Borges: Exactly, so there is some confusion, I was at a conference on issues of diversity and inclusion, a conference at a European level, where they were talking about various issues and how companies should approach these issues. We are talking about the business case, we have to be very sure, very, very closely monitor our numbers and know what is happening and know what the main challenges are, top sponsorship, without a doubt, too, and with very well-defined, very well-defined and assumed commitments, which is an issue that is also important to reinforce and then the way in which the teams are managed, and I remember hearing about a company, which talked about the way it was doing. involve all the people in the organization in this issue and this even inspired us at EDP, so that we create a dynamic that we call the inclusion office, but that goes far beyond the area of ​​people management, or the area of ​​human resources, but much further and that we challenged all people to participate in groups, I would almost say affinity groups, not identification groups, to work on various themes that they want and these groups themselves, even work on the intersection of themes when they live with each other and discuss issues that may overlap. Therefore, the diversity and inclusion team at EDP ends up multiplying in a very capillary and organic way, with the voluntary involvement of people that in fact make all the difference in day-to-day life. The way the topic is also perceived and the inputs we have to work on these issues also come up. We have this in Portugal, we have it in EDP Brazil, we have it in Renewables, also with the launch of what we call the "waves". And I was probably going to finish with this case, because when we defined the concept of this inclusion office, we associated it with the theme of the ocean and of an ocean that, I don't want to make any mistake here, mainly in these sustainability issues, about 95% of the ocean is unexplored and this also happens in the diversity of inclusion, we have an ocean of unexplored issues, hence these groups that we created, they are waves, so we have a wave for one issue, we have a wave for one theme, a wave for another and we open space so that new waves can emerge over time and in a way that people themselves also feel that it makes sense to work on these themes because it is as Fernanda said, it cannot be only unilateral, it has to be something from one side to the other. Therefore.

Catarina Barreiros: That, well, I'm fascinated, because, it's true, in fact, everything they said, about we can only work in the diverse world and act in the diverse world if we have diversity within the company to face these problems, right? It's impossible to talk to women and not have women on the team, it's impossible and it seems so obvious while we are here talking, but at the same time I know that maybe there are people who maybe even have companies, or are part of a company and that they have never thought so deeply about this matter and that is why it is so important to do what they were both saying, that is, saying. 

José Pedro Borges: Yes. 

Catarina Barreiros: To assume what is done and show these good examples, talk about these good examples, inspire other companies to do the same, because deep down, we are all working in a society and that brings me to the next question, which is, it is noticeable the impact of diversity and inclusion issues within companies, but this is more than a small nucleus of a company, it is talking to a society and it is transforming a society and at the governmental level, which is what we can do, what political action can do to embrace these waves and these oceans.

José Pedro Borges: Hmm-hmm.

Catarina Barreiros: Which include diversity and inclusion, what can be done?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: To foster social discussion, I think if we really foster all these, what we are doing here, right? That deep down it is for a certain type of audience, but we have all the success of this discussion, we can all participate in this discussion, we do not think that only experts know how to talk about it, because, [00:30:00] maybe if we listen to other opinions, we end up, I always learn, I have learned now and I always learn. And, therefore, there are situations, there are governments that are much more aware of this than others, now if the governments themselves signed the 2030 agenda, then they do have a long way to go and they need to think about it. And politics is often treacherous in this type of subject, I try to foster, to not be afraid, to be brave, because actually nowadays, with this agile world, with this world so, mistake is part of the equation. When I started working, I did not dare to make a mistake, I really did not dare, I was incredibly afraid to make a mistake, because it was not allowed. At this moment, not only it is allowed, but it is part of the equation. OK, one of the great drivers of being able to benefit from the implementation of diversity and inclusion is to make the business case, we set up our plan, define our diversity goals, but then moving forward, creating the inclusion and diversity committees, which analyze and evaluate what is done. But then if things don't go well, we'll measure it, we'll adjust, therefore, not being afraid of making mistakes, it's very interesting and eventually for the governments themselves was also important, because they always want to do very well and it's better to make mistakes and keep adjusting, and doing and building.

Catarina Barreiros: Than expecting to succeed.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: This is a path, right? This is not, diversity is not, OK, we have diversity, we've gotten here, it's a point, no, it means, we haven't gotten to diversity, it's a path, it's a construction and, therefore, if we really have the courage, eventually we all have them, because I think we are all governments, aren't we? We have the courage to think a little bit and say: “Come on, let's discuss different points of view, let's go.”, but let's build, because if it's just discussion, for the sake discussion, it also feels like there's something missing.

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hmm.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Therefore, let's start the construction, let's start, and if it does not work, OK we'll adjust, we'll assess and let's go again, so it is a lot in this perspective.

José Pedro Borges: And that's it, we all are the government, right? And it is us, as active citizens in the subject, us as companies as well, I find this subject of courage curious, because it goes a little bit to the subject of unconscious biases, doesn't it? Everything that is unknown to us, everything that is stranger to us, can cause some temptation to withdraw, or not to get involved so much and in fact, crossing with that number of 95% of the unknown that is around here, I still feel that there is very little active voice, sometimes due to ignorance or fear that the subject is seen as more of a taboo subject, but, when in fact, it doesn't have to be. It is true that the governments, the European Union too, in this case, have taken some more proactive action in some measures, even very concrete measures when we talk, for example, about the issue of quotas, such a controversial issue, because perhaps in the middle of the discussion it mixes a very concrete goal with an emotion.

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hmm.

José Pedro Borges: Maybe you can say so, or with an emotional perception of the subject itself, but that in fact these measures that governments also implement, allow us to evolve. The subject of the pay gap study, right? When we look at the pay gap, of around 30% or more than 30% in the world, which then varies from country to country, from context to context, but in fact what studies state is that it takes 99.5 years, if I'm not mistaken, for the situation to be solved. Well, if we don't have any concrete measures that can probably speed up or get us here, maybe we won't be able to correct or make the whole situation fairer and more equitable. Then, I also think that companies, in this case, the whole business world, from small, medium, large companies, have an active role in this matter and have an active role that we cannot wait for the government to tell us what to do and companies have an active role in this case and therefore, when I said to assume concrete goals, assume percentages of women's representation, assume a target of pay gap reduction, or correction, or whatever. The issue of hiring people with disabilities, which is also a very critical issue at the moment, because there is a quota to be met in Portugal [00:35:00] and also in other countries, or in many countries in the world, companies have to come forward with very concrete objectives, the CEOs of the companies, as is the case of our CEO, to establish objectives, we have in the scope since the ISG theme, very concrete objectives for the subject of women's representation, women's representation in leadership positions and if not, I don't believe we will be able to evolve, I mean, I perfectly agree with Fernanda when we say that: "We need to talk more about these issues, it is not enough to talk."

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: We have to act.

José Pedro Borges: We have to act.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Yes, we have to act.

Catarina Barreiros: In fact, the subject of quotas is an absolutely current subject that generates a lot of controversy and even in conversations with friends, I won't say conversations over coffee, but Zoom conversations. We have, for a long time, this issue of positive discrimination, quotas and I think there is always one, and that example of 99.5 years to solve the issue, which is a very real example that it is, or we put something that is necessary be made to shorten this lifespan, to effectively, a person's lifespan.

José Pedro Borges: Hmm-hmm.

Catarina Barreiros: Or, in 50 years we will be in 99.5 years again, right? So, maybe explain, or maybe, we can argue, I don't know, opinion, again from a laywoman, but from a woman who has also been in the situation of a company like that, which makes us reflect, maybe if this doesn't happen, it's never going to happen in my life and I'm not going to see my daughter have what I wish I had, or my mother didn't see me having it.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: The same equal opportunity and the same access. This is a very important topic and an issue was also mentioned, by both, on the individual side, it is the governments, it is us, we are the people and we have a role, as citizens and our role is to talk about this and here we are in full agreement, promoting discussion, in fact, discussion between people who are different from us, is also promoting diversity, right? 

José Pedro Borges: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: If not, we would be talking to a mirror.

José Pedro Borges: Hmm-hmm.

Catarina Barreiros: And this individual action is very important and maybe, as we've already gone a long way on this topic, I would just like to ask each of you, an individual action, that we can do today, tomorrow, to promote diversity and inclusion in our life. Will the ladies start? Shall we start with the ladies?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Catarina, let me just, I know we have extended, let me just, because of, we are talking about governments. Governments, in my opinion, have a duty that us, and a possibility and capacity that us citizens do not have, which is to legislate. 

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hmm.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: And taking, for example, people with disabilities and the new, new, in short, which is about two years old, if I'm not mistaken...

José Pedro Borges: Hmm-hmm.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: ... legislation for people with disabilities. Legislating is very important, but once again, it's not enough. Paper is not enough, words are not enough. Because it ends up generating expectations that are then gouged and then defrauded, people feel like as they were fooled, right?

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hmm.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Because there are quotas, but then there are not.

Catarina Barreiros: Enforcement, right?

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Mechanisms to enforce, control mechanisms and, therefore...

José Pedro Borges: Starting at the root, right? Start right on the question.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Exactly. 

José Pedro Borges: [Overlapping voices] of the deficiencies of the academies themselves, universities, schools, etc., that is all, it is not only a question of employability in the end. And sorry, Fernanda, for interrupting you.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: No, no, not at all, and it is true, therefore, there is a possibility for governments to act, which we do not have and to think that what is in fact being done should not defraud expectations.

Catarina Barreiros: Expectations.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: An action on individual. Well, I can say what I am doing right now. I've always done a lot of volunteering, but always connected to this, it has always been, it has been with my people, there is no doubt, I have some, I am aware of some details, I now went there to wash my hands and saw that the container said: "green apple soap”, the liquid inside was blue and I thought it was fabulous. I thought that in fact this is a peculiarity, that and, therefore, but I am currently collaborating with APAC, which is an association that works on the reinsertion of ex-prisoners and I ended up, yes, it's already out of the oven, but I did with another person, with two more people, we designed the mentoring program, to somehow welcome ex-prisoners when they get back to society and how they can be better inserted. Anyway, this would be a world, it would give a, to another podcast, but somehow I try to find the causes that I welcome and embrace, have some component here, not just [00:40:00] on the part, that, motivates me, because it's also important, what I give is much less than what I get, I've always felt that, I always get a lot more than what I give, but it makes a difference, because if we don't take the things that make a difference, if we only take the things that are easy to do, it's not much, at least for me from an individual perspective.

José Pedro Borges: I can also share an individual exercise, in fact I even challenge everyone who is watching this podcast to do. Start today to question yourself much more, which is an exercise that I try to do daily and it is an exercise. In the first instance, to recognize that we are all biased. We are biased, of course, there is a system that we could talk about too now, another podcast on the subject of unconscious bias, but it is a phenomenon, isn't it? That happens. And it is natural to happen, what is important is to be aware and be aware, not only to the fact that we are biased, but when these biases can translate into prejudice, discrimination and so on. And if each one of us, in our work, in our personal life, in our day-to-day, is more attentive, in an attempt to be more aware of unconscious biases, I think we can take an interesting path, from the moment we take decisions in companies, to the moment when we make decisions about what to buy, what to do, what to choose, and I think that this way we can evolve a little more.

Catarina Barreiros: It's funny to have picked up on the subject of bias. I recently heard a podcast about meritocracy and it talked about cognitive bias and in fact that cognitive bias is all a subject for a podcast as well.

José Pedro Borges: Hmm-hmm.

Catarina Barreiros: Along with inclusion, I know APAC very well, I have a project with them.

Fernanda Barata de Carvalho: Ah!

Catarina Barreiros: And I think both points were very pertinent, the first, maybe a reflection exercise on what we do without thinking, which has the associated cognitive bias, right? And the other is, what are we giving from our life and receiving, because when we give, we're going to receive double, I absolutely believe in this and therefore, there we want to receive, we want to receive a mirror, everything that we already know we have or want to open up to a world that gives us different opportunities and therefore I think this podcast, this episode without knowing, was all amazing and I learned in all, but this one really pulls a lot on our human side, right? And that we can all do something today, now, on this topic, so maybe I leave the challenge, to those who are listening, to do these exercises where we are choosing to allocate our effort, our volunteer time, our dedication and what we are thinking and acting according to the cognitive biases that we already have and I leave with this reflection, because in fact, as the Podcast title says, “It's now or never.” 

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast "It's Now or Never" on Spotify or edp.com