Transcript of episode 8: air quality | edp.com

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.

Catarina Barreiros: Welcome to another episode of the podcast "It's now or never," an EDP podcast on sustainability. And today, let's talk about air quality. Let's realize that this theme is part of the UN's Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), let's realize which industries are the most polluting, and also what is the role of electrification of the economy in what it says. With me, to talk about this topic, we have two experts. We have Francisco Ferreira, a graduate in environmental engineering, from FCT (Faculty of Sciences and Technology) Nova, where he is currently a professor and researcher of the census and has been dedicated mainly to the areas of air quality, climate change and climate change. He was vice president and president of QUERCUS and member of the National Water Council and the National Environment and Sustainable Development Council. He is currently president of Zero. Ana Paula Mesquita, graduated in environmental engineering from the University of Aveiro, where he later did his master's degree in Atmospheric Pollution. He also collaborated with the Regional Environment Directorate, with the Portuguese Environment Agency, and with the General Environmental Inspection. Since 2000, he has been at EDP, in the direction of sustainability of EDP Production. Thank you both for being here. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Thank you. 

Catarina Barreiros: And let's start with the first great theme, which is air quality and SDGs. How does this issue of air quality come into play, which we have so often not heard of. We have heard a lot about sustainability, and what do we have about the relationship between SDGs 11, cities and sustainable communities, and SDGs 13, with regard to air quality? 

Francisco Ferreira: Well, Catarina, what is a fact is that I think it's a little bit we talk only about these two SDGs, these goals for sustainable development, because really the air quality ends up being present in other goals. I was thinking, for example, of the goal of education. 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira: In the objective related to quality health, which is ODS 3, also with regard to SDGs 14 and 15, which have to do with protecting marine life and life... 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira:... terrestrial. Also with regard to energy sources. And, therefore, the air quality turns out to be... 

Catarina Barreiros: Transversal? 

Francisco Ferreira: Transversal. In fact, air, if we think, there is always here one... who works in the air quality part, there is always a strong argument here, that is: "Well, I can stay without eating a few days, also without drinking less days..."

Catarina Barreiros: Without breathing... 

Francisco Ferreira:... I don't get away. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira: And, therefore, you can't even handle a lot of time. And for that very reason, air quality is so pertinent, and it is very much related to, without a doubt, the goal of sustainable cities, because it is in the cities that I am going to have the greatest concerns today. Every time I am managing to reduce more emissions associated with industry, but in cities, I still have a high prevalence of road transport...

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. 

Francisco Ferreira:... mainly from the individual use of the car. And on the other hand, because, with regard to the great problem that we have of humanity in this century, which is climate change. What is true is that almost all the measures I can take to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, which cause global warming and consequent climate change, are also measures that improve air quality. And so if we think, for example, of Portugal. 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira: In Portugal, the main sector responsible for greenhouse gas emissions associated with climate change is the transport sector, mainly road transport. So what about air quality? It's the same thing. So whether we talk about carbon dioxide, which is not usually considered a pollutant with an effect on health in outdoor air, either... but in indoor air it can already be problematic, whether we are talking about other sustainability pollutants, which are not 

Catarina Barreiros: So when we talk about these objectives and this transversality of air quality, in essence, we are talking about attacking sustainability as a whole. And you mentioned an interesting thing, that is the inner air and the outer air. And we talked about it before the recording, I was even very curious, because this is a concept: Inner air and outer air, isn't it? We are talking about air inside the house, air outside the house. What is affecting the quality of our air, inside our home and outside our home, beyond the transport sector, obviously very impactful in cities? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Air quality always has several factors that determine, in essence, at every moment, if the air is breathable, is good, if it is below what are [00:05: 00] the recommendations, for example, of the World Health Organization...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

Ana Paula Mesquita:... and their own, in short, guidelines in terms of the European Union, because at every moment, in addition to what are the sources of emission, it also has the effect of meteorology, it has the effect of pollutants... Therefore, there are a number of factors that contribute to this air quality. In the case of indoor air quality, finally, the problem has to do with the fact that we have a very closed environment. It could be a little renewed environment. And so there is concentration of some kind of pollutants. Essentially, sources of combustion...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... that has to do with the kitchen, has to do with heating, if not, for example, electric. It may have to do with the use, for example, of paints, solvents, produce organic compounds. Many are dangerous to health. It has to do with another type of pollutants, not the classics, but, for example, accumulation of fungi, so all this makes it important, for example, to renew the air daily by renewing the air, as there is...

Francisco Ferreira: Um, um.

Ana Paula Mesquita:... finally, the loss of energy efficiency in the house. And therefore, try to reduce to the maximum this period of renewal, and understand, for example, also to the quality of outdoor air, for example, at heights... in which the quality of outdoor air is quite bad...

Catarina Barreiros: Cutting-edge hours? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Cutting-edge hours, for example. Avoid, for example, renewing at that time.

Catarina Barreiros: Open windows, isn't it? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Open windows.

Francisco Ferreira: I mean, incidentally, one thing that seems important to me, is that: Per year, or, at least, in a normal year that is not affected... 

Catarina Barreiros: What not pandemic? 

Francisco Ferreira:... non-pandemic, WHO estimates 7 million premature deaths associated with poor air quality. 4.2 million people therefore die a year, mainly due to outdoor air. And 2.8 in the inner air. We are obviously talking here also about very different countries, because they are developing countries, where I use wood, charcoal to cook, for example, indoors. That is where indoor air quality will be more decisive. In developed countries, it is more the external air quality that ends up being relevant. But it is good for us to realize that poor air quality is the environmental factor that most reduces life expectancy on a global scale. In addition, obviously, to the so-called morbidity, therefore, of the disease...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira:... where the impact is also very significant. In Portugal, pre-pandemic data point to values of around 5,000 people. It ranges from 4,000 to 6,000 people... depends... per year, who die prematurely, who see their life expectancy... 

Catarina Barreiros: Decreased? 

Francisco Ferreira:... reduced, at the expense of poor air quality. 

Catarina Barreiros: It is still quite significant. This, although one of the essential characteristics that contributes to poor outdoor air quality is transport and mobility, it is noted that it is worse in environments of less developed countries than in very dense urban areas with a lot of traffic, this...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Urban areas, no doubt. The problem of poor air quality, fortunately or unfortunately, is quite democratic from this point of view. In other words, it affects both developed and developing countries, although, as Francisco Ferreira said, the problems may be different...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Therefore, in countries, for example, of Africa, the problem of indoor air quality, therefore, at the level of heating...

Catarina Barreiros: Is it more relevant? 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... from... is different, for example, from Europe. In fact, traffic, and some industrial emissions also have a lot of impact.

Francisco Ferreira: But in China, for example, we have the worst of both worlds. 

Catarina Barreiros: For. 

Francisco Ferreira: That is, in China, for example, we have both coal-fired power stations, which still have a very large influence, both on greenhouse gases and on various pollutants that affect air quality, and of course also on the increasing Shanghai

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, yes. 

Francisco Ferreira:... Beijing, etc., and this is also in other [00:10: 00] developing economies, where, with the increase in purchasing power, people end up following, let's say, in many cases, this journey of public transport... 

Catarina Barreiros: For the individual. 

Francisco Ferreira:... for the use of the car. And that obviously has consequences. Although, in many cases, particularly in China, electric vehicles are also beginning to gain ground.

Catarina Barreiros: Ready. That's where I was going to arrive. In China, I do not know, I can say nonsense, but what may be happening is: On the one hand, we have an economy that is highly dependent on production and is still very much linked to coal renewable energies sustainability, so it is a On the other hand, it has... that is, they begin to improve, right. On the other hand, they have a population that is very large and that is gaining more and more economic power, so to speak, is it not? And we see development as the ability to have and have, isn't it? But we forget the part of mobility, in this case, that it is very important, in which to gain this capacity for development, causes us to lose the environmental part and the part of health, with the quality of the air. And he spoke, a little while ago, of...

Francisco Ferreira: And that's why this is important...

Catarina Barreiros: The cake. 

Francisco Ferreira:... logic of looking at the cake of the goals of sustainable development, isn't it? 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira: I can't get it at the expense of a particular type of development, which I end up harming other key areas. 

Catarina Barreiros: No doubt. And they were, a little ago... I think the two referred to industry and the role of industry, not only in China, but they were talking about the most polluting industries... in the world, what is happening at industrial level, and Because we already see a great electrification. And, on the one hand, that seems to me a good sign, I do not know. Maybe...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Um-hum. No doubt. 

Catarina Barreiros: No doubt? OK. 

Francisco Ferreira: I think everything depends... Ana Paula, maybe, then you can add... 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira:... but I think everything depends very, very, very, first, on the type of industry we have, isn't it? And then we can have refineries, we can have cementeiras, we can have a whole set of great industry. And it all depends on where they are located. And of course the environmental requirements that countries impose. Europe, for example, really imposes a whole set of rules in terms of legislation, so that I can achieve maximum reduction in air pollution, associated with the different industrial sectors. And then, in the electricity production sector, it all depends on the percentage I will have of renewable sources. And, in particular, the use of certain fuels, such as coal mainly...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira:... between coal, fuel, natural gas. Coal, by its nature, namely being a solid, because it is a mechanism for producing electricity from coal, is the most polluting... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira:... both in terms of CO2 and other pollutants. For example, sulphur, the presence of sulphur, the emission of particles... but there is one thing that is also very simple, that is: We have to realize that and I would say, even though we can talk about some specific sectors. Or the burning. The burning process itself...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. Right? 

Francisco Ferreira:... because that's where I have...

Catarina Barreiros: The extraction...

Francisco Ferreira:... when I burn any of these fuels, I... this will depend on what I have in the fuel. For example, if I have a very bad fuel, type... with enough sulphur, or with many particles to be generated, it will be a problem in terms of air pollution. Obviously, carbon is fossil, I will aggravate global warming. And then I still have another problem, which is: As the reaction is made at very high temperatures, I will combine the nitrogen I have in the air, 78% of our air is nitrogen, which will combine with oxygen. And so I will always have emissions of nitrogen oxides. And that is what happens to cars, combustion. It is that... and the same thing happens in the industry, so whenever I have a combustion process, I will have these emissions of nitrogen oxides, which are currently in the cities, the main one... namely in Lisbon, in Porto, 

Ana Paula Mesquita: And now I think we could also add that... in relation to nitrogen oxides, which normally, combustion processes emit mainly nitrogen monoxide, and then it turns into NO2 (nitrogen dioxide). In other words, it is a pollutant that, on the one hand, has chronic health effects. Either depending on a long-term exposure, or in episodic [00:15: 00] situations... has already happened in the past acute... effects. But it also has the power, in contact with water, to become an acid. And have consequences at the level, for example, of vegetation. And we all remember what the problem of acid rains was in central European countries such as Germany. And it has the ability to produce a phenomenon called eutrophication. Basically, it is the feeding in excess lakes, as if it were a natural fertilizer and therefore lead to the development of algae, which, when they die, end up consuming all the water of the river. And therefore lead to the death of the river itself. It has problems... in the atmosphere it can give rise to another very harmful pollutant for health, which is ozone. Formed, composed of volatile organic and, therefore, a chemical soup, say, in the atmosphere, which gives rise to ozone. It can also, for example, have problems in terms of, for example, corrosion of buildings, visibility, when we go, for example, to a city like Paris, we want to see monuments, and what we see is a fog in the background...

Catarina Barreiros: Hovering... 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... with the landscape...

Catarina Barreiros:... so quietly, isn't it? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Exactly. Therefore, NOX has the ability to produce all of this. Therefore, any measure that can, for example, lower NOX emissions, has all these beneficial effects.

Francisco Ferreira: And Ana Paula is saying something that is fundamental. We often concentrate on health only, but what is true is that when we talk about air pollution, and when we talk about poor air quality, we talk about health...

Catarina Barreiros: Ecosystem? 

Francisco Ferreira:... human and ecosystem. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira: From vegetation too, sometimes, in particular, because vegetation suffers a lot, either with ozone, here is the so-called bad ozone because we fortunately have... the substance is the same, but we have the good ozone, which But actually this is one of the most problematic pollutants because of these consequences all. 

Catarina Barreiros: The person even costs breathing, after having this information. 

Francisco Ferreira: No, this is basically an air pollution course, free for those who will listen to the podcast. 

Catarina Barreiros: Nothing. No, but it is, in fact, the person, when he has this information, gets... we hear a lot about fossil fuels and extraction as being very bad, and we think about plastic and oceans, but in reality, we're talking about fossil fuels. Chemical, natural compounds... 

Francisco Ferreira: Um, um. 

Catarina Barreiros:... but chemicals in the air that we breathe and that make us die earlier...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Exactly. And that they have the ability to travel at distances enough... 

Catarina Barreiros: At a distance... 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... great. 

Francisco Ferreira: Yes, yes. 

Catarina Barreiros: It's air, isn't it?

Ana Paula Mesquita: For example, NOX is a very reactive pollutant. He, I know there, in a few hours, or in a day, disappears. It's always being issued, isn't it? But it disappears. The problem is that it then forms these other compounds, such as not only ozone, but fine particles, which are...

Francisco Ferreira: Um, um. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... a very dangerous pollutant, because it penetrates the airways, and manages, through the bronchi, the pulmonary alveoli, to reach the blood, to cause heart attacks and cancer. And a number of other effects.

Francisco Ferreira: And just say one thing here, now, so that we do not feel so guilty, that although we have a decisive role here, particularly in cities, we also have the right to natural pollution. That is, for example, here in the Iberian Peninsula, we have dust that comes from the Sahara and the Sahel, therefore, from the deserts of North Africa, which also affect us, which also harm our health. But, however, we cannot do anything, because...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira:... is a natural mechanism of... 

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. 

Francisco Ferreira:... transport of these dust, but that does not cease to affect...

Catarina Barreiros: Health. 

Francisco Ferreira:... health is not entitled to volcanoes, but we are entitled to the Sahara. 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, there is, there is the limit of what we can control and what we cannot control, is it not? We have to know how to live with what we cannot control. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes. 

Catarina Barreiros:... and improve what you give. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes. It's a complicated problem. It's not like water, for example, that I can... has a company that captures water, treats water, channels water, and reaches our taps, which guarantee you...

Catarina Barreiros: Clean up. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... a quality necessary for me to be able to drink rested. Air... we don't have an air supply company, don't we? Except to walk with a mask.

Catarina Barreiros: Are we going to have it? But right. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: And, therefore, all the air quality management, mainly because, say, be so many factors contributing to... every day everything is changing, isn't it? Between the good and the bad, and the...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: It is... 

Catarina Barreiros: And it is highly... 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... which complicates. 

Catarina Barreiros:... volatile. It's a... this changes all...

Francisco Ferreira: No. That is why it is important, for example, for the whole part of information, is it not? It is also important to talk about this. People can... there is a website, which is managed by the Portuguese Environment Agency (APA), which is qualar, has an application for the mobile phone, but the information is also on the said page [00:20: 00]...

Catarina Barreiros: Internet... on the site. 

Francisco Ferreira:... by qualar, and the person can receive information. There are also cities, such as Lisbon and others that are installing sensors, in which we can also see what air quality is. And all this is, one has sought... One might think: "Well, then, I mean, to know if my air is good or not, I have to do at least 20 hours of literacy." No, it's not true... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira:... because this is all simplified through an index. 

Catarina Barreiros: It's listening to this episode...

Francisco Ferreira: And therefore...

Catarina Barreiros:... and see the application. No, I'm playing. 

Francisco Ferreira: No. But then the person, therefore, already inspired by the episode, if he sees it, then realizes: "After all, this is much simpler," because really...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. There are indicators, isn't it? 

Francisco Ferreira:... the index says if it's very good...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Bad...

Francisco Ferreira:... good... 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... or weak. 

Francisco Ferreira:... medium...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira:... weak... 

Ana Paula Mesquita: There are five, steps I think...

Francisco Ferreira:... or bad. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... I think. Hum-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira: If it's bad, then, ready...

Francisco Ferreira:... there, to breathe... 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Don't give...

Francisco Ferreira:... and then the other day, when it's good, comes back.

Ana Paula Mesquita: Exactly. And it is important this application, I think it can be really useful, for example, for those who have little children or elderly people in the...

Catarina Barreiros: Even to choose destinations, isn't it? If you choose...

Ana Paula Mesquita:... or people with heart problems, breathing problems...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... before going for a walk, run a little bit... 

Francisco Ferreira: Um, um. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... consult the page, and see: "Today, is a good day for... 

Catarina Barreiros: This...

Francisco Ferreira: In particular...

Francisco Ferreira:... during the summer, because of ozone...

Ana Paula Mesquita: From ozone, exact. 

Francisco Ferreira:... that Ana Paula said, is fundamental. Because if I have a very hot day, and if I am on the outskirts of a city, so where I already start to have the melting pot of pollutants turning into so-called secondary pollutants, isn't it?

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira: It is very important to be aware of this information, because I really should not do physical exercise, for example, at a time when I have high ozone concentrations. If it is up to a certain level, as long as I am not part of the sensitive groups, and here we are talking about children, the elderly and people with breathing problems...

Catarina Barreiros: Breathing, isn't it? 

Francisco Ferreira:... and cardiorespiratory. If it is then above yet, at a higher level, then it is for everyone, isn't it?

Ana Paula Mesquita: Um-hum. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Francisco Ferreira: But, therefore, this attention to air quality issues is fundamental. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: The application itself, I believe it gives information about it...

Francisco Ferreira: Yes. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... precisely, if you belong to the most sensitive class of people, today you should not do, I know there...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Ana Paula Mesquita:... no... 

Catarina Barreiros: This seems important to me for athletes, for families, for everyone... 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Exact, yes, yes, yes.

Catarina Barreiros:... is it not? From... "Did... I go there to the park with my daughter, maybe I'll see which of the parks are here around me... 

Francisco Ferreira: Well, the detail is not that great, but...

CatarinaBarreiros: Good, but maybe if I decide to go on holiday... spend a weekend somewhere, and there is a place clearly with a quality of air...

FranciscoFerreira: I think they are...

CatarinaBarreiros:... inferior. 

FranciscoFerreira: Yes, but, I mean, above all, if the person is attentive already knows that...

CatarinaBarreiros: Yes...

FranciscoFerreira: For example, that...

CatarinaBarreiros:... is information, yes. 

FranciscoFerreira:... that we were talking about. Do not do an intense physical exercise...

CatarinaBarreiros: Um-hum. 

FranciscoFerreira:... outside, on a day when I have very high ozone concentrations, for example...

AnaPaulaMesquita: Um-hum. 

FranciscoFerreira:... that's...

AnaPaulaMesquita: It is...

FranciscoFerreira:... it's basic. And not only. And also, according to desensitization. If I follow the information, I will realize that there are certain times when the air is bad, and why is it bad. Because if it is the pollution from the Sahara, I cannot do anything there, but usually the most serious cases are, for example, in certain areas, in winter, with certain weather conditions and with the use of fireplaces, in which Or, for example, in the center of cities too, with certain weather conditions, little wind, for example, cold. In which I have what is called a thermal inversion. So you have such a helmet, don't you? And, indeed, it is to prevent me, not just I breathe, but, already now, I realize what I must avoid to no longer contribute to this pollution. 

CatarinaBarreiros: The case of fireplaces is paradigmatic.

AnaPaulaMesquita: I was remembering, for example, this kind of situations of great atmospheric calm, in which the atmosphere has no capacity to mix pollutants with the rest of the air, in order to disperse it. I was remembering, for example, that episode, which is not typical pollution, but it is still a problem of air pollution, which occurred with legionella in the Póvoa de Santa Iria area, just as there was an accumulation of legionella, possibly at that time, there was an accumulation of all other pollutants. There, the problem was, in fact, legionella. But it's the typical... about, maybe five days ago, or more, we had a very, very stable atmosphere, and, then, it and gave rise to this horrible episode, with deaths and therefore many people hospitalized. 

CatarinaBarreiros: Well, we're in a particularly interesting year to talk about air quality, isn't it? And respiratory diseases. No It makes sense. Now the question is: We are here almost in an effort to breathe. At least, that's what I think, when reviewing the hours of my day. But what can be done? What are governments doing? Some time ago, people were talking about legislation, that Europe should have legislation on this subject. What is being done now? To help to reassure a little the people who are listening to us. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: I think a lot has been done at the European level. I think we have already talked about a few things. Basically, we have an European legislation that rests on three pillars: one has to do with air quality, defining what air quality is [00:25:00], having criteria that change throughout Europe, about monitoring methods, because we don't know if we have good or bad air quality if we don't measure, and we measure according to reliable methods and we have limit values. Therefore, for each pollutant, we have short-term limits, for example, by hour, or long-term, depending if we're dealing with episodic or chronic situations. For ecosystems, too. So, on the one hand, we have these air quality directives. Then we have... because there was a very serious problem, as we have talked about, acid rains and... at some point, it was realized that there is a problem that is cross-border pollution, that there is no "small box" that prevents pollutants to go somewhere else...

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Ana Paula Mesquita: … so countries like Belgium, for example...

Catarina Barreiros: There are no borders, yes.

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... who have... Germany, France, the Netherlands next door, suffer, not only from its pollution, but also from...

Catarina Barreiros: The pollution of their neighbors.

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... the pollution of their neighbors. Therefore, at some point, there was finally a convention between the countries, and it was agreed to limit the emissions of each country to various pollutants. So there is that national commitment as well. And then there are emission limit values for each industry, therefore for each type of source...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... for example... 

Catarina Barreiros: For every industry. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: ...for every type of industry. So we have evolved in a very positive way. Nevertheless, there are still problems. Therefore, at the end of 2009, the European Commission approved the Ecological Pact...

Francisco Ferreira: The European Ecological Pact. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... European, Green Deal, which provides, for example, an itinerary for...

Francisco Ferreira: It is the so-called Plan of Action, Plan of Action for Zero Pollution.

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... zero pollution. 

Francisco Ferreira: I wanted to add that what Ana Paula said, and very well, in the part of the industry also applies to cars. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: To cars, exactly. 

Francisco Ferreira: So, for example, over time, we have had ever greater demands regarding the emissions of cars, the so-called Euro Standards. We are currently in standard 6, and already have some variations, because now we have the 6, 6D, and people are already talking of a Euro 7 standard. This relates to combustion engines. So before 92, we did not have the catalyst that solved the problems associated with a number of pollutants as well. Now, of course... ah, and even more so, as far as industry is concerned, there is one aspect that I think is fundamental: Since 1996, Europe has decided to do this in an integrated way. In other words, it is the so-called integrated pollution prevention and control, because before we were able to reduce air pollution, but we got dust instead, for example, and this dust was going to a landfill. That is, we transferred pollution from one side to the other...

Catarina Barreiros: To the landfill, right. 

Francisco Ferreira: ...isn't it? And, therefore, since that time, in every industry, one has to use the best technologies available, either by adapting the oldest industries, or by deploying the technologies in the new ones. And in an integrated way. Therefore, we cannot solve one problem without solving the other. And, of course, we, now, with the issue of climate change, are also trying to look, both at the issues of air pollution, of more traditional pollutants, and also at the issue of reducing greenhouse gases. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Francisco Ferreira: But, as I said, and I repeat, I mean, only the issue of burning fossil fuels ends up being...

Catarina Barreiros: A problem in itself? 

Francisco Ferreira: ... a huge opportunity, for example, if we can transfer a lot of this pollution to the use of renewable electricity, be it, for example, in vehicles, or in many industries, where this electrification is already possible. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: I think... I would add the energy and electricity sector, which had an amazing evolution in recent years. Because, if we think of the 1960s, we started with fuel oil, even with the coal-fired plant of Tapada do Outeiro. But above all, Carregado, Setúbal, therefore, fuel oil plants that had, in short, very few measures. They had electrostatic precipitators, for particles, they had some reduction in the limitation, in the sulphur content. But they were very polluting plants. Then came the coal, with the Sines Central, the Pego Central, also only with precipitators initially. Therefore, we had an ever-increasing evolution, until, around the 1990s, the energy sector was one of the sectors with the most weight in terms of emissions in the country. From there, it was exactly the opposite. So, we had the appearance of...

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... natural gas. In short, the fuel oil plants started to operate less and less, so in terms of market, they have ceased to be and have ended up...

Francisco Ferreira: And they ended. Did Setúbal end at the end of the first decade of this century?

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes. Yes. 2010. Between 2010 and 2013, therefore, all the fuel oil plants closed [00:30:00]. Coal, in that spirit of prevention and integrated control...

Francisco Ferreira: Yes, it's this year...

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... and with the directives, even the large combustion plants began to need other type of pollution reduction measures related to the coal itself. Therefore, we have to install desulphurisation to remove sulphur. Initially, we had primary measures... 

Catarina Barreiros: Therefore, to remove a by-product to remove these products...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes, exactly. It's like a washbasin, a shower, let's say...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... with lime milk that can capture acidic gases such as sulphur dioxide and others, hydrofluoric, hydrochloric, in short, all is retained in this way. NOX has that particularity... we just said that it is not just the nitrogen of the fuel itself, but it is the nitrogen of the air. Therefore, it is very ungrateful from this point of view because it is the nitrogen itself of the air, at that combustion temperature, that forms those oxides of nitrogen. Therefore, first, there were primary measures. So it has to do with, well, regulating the burning of... with a question of geometry, of adding air, in order to be able to reduce... or the flame temperature, or... therefore, to control the emission. So these are primary measurements, aren't they? Therefore, it is to avoid the formation of nitrogen oxides, but then, later on, the requirement was further aggravated, therefore, in terms of Community directives. And we ended up having to install denitrification also in the Sines Central. 

Francisco Ferreira: And then CO2 came, wasn't it?

Ana Paula Mesquita: Then came CO2...

Francisco Ferreira: From climate change...

Ana Paula Mesquita: The Sines Central closed. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... becoming very expensive...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Exactly. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... and we really had to give up on coal...

Ana Paula Mesquita: That must get lower, isn't it? 

Francisco Ferreira: Therefore, Sines closed in January. Pego is scheduled to close by November. And...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Therefore, it is an evolution, indeed...

Francisco Ferreira: ... and this has to be replaced by other sources, a bit by natural gas, for now, which is still a fossil fuel, but above all, by renewables. Therefore, there is a huge change here, so much so that, as Ana Paula said, we, for example, when we look at pollution in terms of greenhouse gases, the electricity sector was always there at the same level as the transport sector, but already this year, the transport sector has a bigger impact…

Catarina Barreiros: It overtook... 

Francisco Ferreira: ... in relation to the electric sector. So...

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. Are we talking worldwide? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: In fact, in recent years, I believe that...

Francisco Ferreira: It was already...

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... transport was already... 

Francisco Ferreira: ... there transport, was already a little above...

Ana Paula Mesquita: ... with a big slice of the total. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... and therefore...

Catarina Barreiros: Worldwide? Are we talking worldwide? 

Francisco Ferreira: No. We are talking here at the level...

Catarina Barreiros: The national level.

Francisco Ferreira: ... about Portugal. 

Catarina Barreiros: National, OK. 

Francisco Ferreira: At the level of...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... at the Portuguese level. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: But even the...

Catarina Barreiros: Even worldwide, it remains...

Francisco Ferreira: Even worldwide...

Catarina Barreiros: ... the electric sector. 

Francisco Ferreira: ...also...

Catarina Barreiros: Is it already catching up? 

Francisco Ferreira: It depends a lot on the country, isn't it? There are countries where it has a very large portion of electricity production, and there are still investments in coal. These are complicated investments, aren't they? Because we have to ensure, in fact, in line with the Paris Agreement of 2015, with goal 13, we have to ensure that our temperature does not rise more than 1.5 degrees in relation to the pre-industrial era. And we are already very close to that figure. 

Catarina Barreiros: Do we still have time? Do we still have time is the question. 

Francisco Ferreira: We are very close. Supposedly, in scientific terms, we are on time. In political terms, I think it's more complicated. 

Catarina Barreiros: That's the big question, isn't it? We are always talking about changes that have been made progressively in the sector... in energy, exponentially, on the last years. I think in Portugal we have seen a...

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes, it was the sector that most contributed to the reduction with... and transport too... 

Francisco Ferreira: Yes, yes. 

Catarina Barreiros: And it is estimated to remain one of the most important, isn't it? But then there is the part of the political decision, isn't it? And...

Francisco Ferreira: That is to say, just a short time ago, he urged that, in line with what the International Energy Agency also recommended, that we stopped selling, for example, vehicles with a combustion engine...

Catarina Barreiros: Some countries already... 

Francisco Ferreira: ...from 2035...

Catarina Barreiros: ... they are... yes, yes. 

Francisco Ferreira: I think if we can anticipate that date, that's even better. To 30 or... but it is also essential that there is a greater competition here, let's say...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum, regarding prices... hum-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... or competitiveness on the part of electric vehicles, the possibility of charging it, also of some technological development. And it is also important that we have the notion that all of this is the best effort for us, in a logic of sustainability, to reduce the impact. Because, we should not have the illusion that electric vehicles have no impact on the environment, of course they have! That is to say, the issue of batteries, the question of some electricity that is not renewed...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... even solar panels imply...

Catarina Barreiros: Of course...

Francisco Ferreira: …materials…

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, of course. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... and production. Therefore, the question here is that, when I compare the electric vehicle in its life cycle with a combustion engine vehicle, there is no possible comparison in terms of emissions between one and the other. Therefore, the electric is, especially if it is... 

Catarina Barreiros: In a country like ours... 

Francisco Ferreira: ...used... 

Catarina Barreiros: ...with more than 50 percent...

Francisco Ferreira: ... in a country like ours, with more...

Catarina Barreiros: ... renewable energy. 

Francisco Ferreira: ... renewable energy, therefore, there, it does not compare with the combustion vehicle. But it is necessary... here there is a real critical analysis, and ever more demand.

Catarina Barreiros: There is a European site for transports [00:35: 00] that compares various vehicle brands and models with electric vehicles. It shows how many kilometers an electric vehicle compensates for the environment in each country. That is …

Francisco Ferreira: Ok. For Portugal, I would recommend, incidentally, an evident website named MobZero.pt … 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira: It is a website from Zero, which, indeed, has partnered with several contributions, namely EDP. Therefore, on this site, people can make a simulation of total costs. That is to say, not only in the acquisition but also in what is …

Catarina Barreiros: In the amortization of investments …

Francisco Ferreira: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: Maintenance. 

Francisco Ferreira: Yes, maintenance and use too, with energy costs, to have a more direct comparison. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: It is crucial, in this comparison, to think not only about reducing CO2 emissions but also about reducing other pollutants …

Francisco Ferreira: That's true. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: And, also the air quality benefits.

Francisco Ferreira: On the MobZero website, not only do we comprehend this value regarding CO2, but also for NOX, for the so fantastic nitrogen oxides that we mentioned before. 

Catarina Barreiros: You can believe so. When we mention a sector that is exceedingly charred, that is to say, mobility, transport, I believe that international aviation has a great weight here. There are already some prospective alternatives, but nothing implemented today, correct? Moreover, during the pandemic, we have seen a decrease in concentrations of nitrogen dioxide. In China and in some countries, as a result of the downtime in international aviation. At least, that is what Bloomberg thought at the time. The question is: We can make an individual effort, and obviously, road mobility continues to have a vast impact. To what extent does it make sense for us to wager on individual mobility, even if electrified, before thinking, for example, about collective mobility of long distances, with hydrogen, for example, as well as green, of course. Not hydrogen from fossil sources, from fossil fuels. Because we may have, in a few years' time, electric and hydrogen buses.

Ana Paula Mesquita: It is also fundamental to add that burning hydrogen also produces nitrogen oxides. 

Francisco Ferreira: [expressing agreement.] 

Catarina Barreiros: Ah! 

Ana Paula Mesquita: If it is combustion after hydrogen, there also is …

Francisco Ferreira: Therefore, the ideal use of hydrogen is as a fuel cell … 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Fuel cell. 

Francisco Ferreira: Not so much as combustion … 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, of course. 

Francisco Ferreira: Now, let's see, concerning the transport sector, I would say that there are some legitimate perspectives here. Taking the example of automobiles, buses, and trucks, clearly, the use of batteries and also hydrogen, especially for heavy vehicles, is the way forward. 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, yes. I was talking about the long-distance, yes. 

Francisco Ferreira: Concerning navigation and aviation, this is where we will have to channelize the use of hydrogen, or even more, of ammonia. Green hydrogen produces ammonia. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. I was unaware of that. 

Francisco Ferreira: This is one of the great possibilities, particularly for navigation. And then, we also have to consider that all these measures sometimes require us to go further upstream. The question is, and the pandemic also compels us into that, in this case, fortunately: "Do I need to go to Brussels three times a month or four times a month for meetings?" 

Catarina Barreiros: We have Zoom now, of course.

Francisco Ferreira: Maybe it's fine for me to go to Brussels, and it's positive for me to go to Brussels. But I can go to Brussels, maybe once a year or twice a year. Otherwise, I can have a meeting … 

Catarina Barreiros: By Conference Call? 

Francisco Ferreira: By videoconferencing, right? And then, I can also take into consideration: "Well. And, moreover, do I get cost equity from this?" For example, aviation does not pay any taxes, while we do in road or railway transportation. And, still considering railway transportation. I mean, can I have a better offer to go at least to Madrid or Porto, or on a night train to Paris? 

Catarina Barreiros: Average distances, correct? 

Francisco Ferreira: There! 

Catarina Barreiros: Those … [expressing agreement.] 

Francisco Ferreira: There is a whole set of equations here that … 

Catarina Barreiros: That have …

Francisco Ferreira: … must be resolved so that I can reduce the impact in terms of climate change and in terms of air quality. 

Catarina Barreiros: Hence, we are talking about a generalized solution. It will not be suddenly: "Ok, it can't be from automobiles, it can't be from the railroad, it can't be …" We have to act on all fronts, don't we? 

Francisco Ferreira: Exactly. One of the crucial actions is actually, sometimes, to steady down on what our mobility needs are. 

Catarina Barreiros: Regarding consuming? 

Francisco Ferreira: Yes, regarding consuming. Without any doubt. 

Catarina Barreiros: So, to conclude, on an individual level, what personal action can we take to help improve air quality? Maybe, each of us can mention one, to finish on a positive note, so that we all can breathe better [00:40:00]. 

Francisco Ferreira: I will let Ana Paula say the first one, like...

Ana Paula Mesquita: No. That, as a fact, is the most important one, isn't it? Think twice before you travel at the expense of any combustion process, right? If I can go cycling or can walk to my destination, then I must opt for that. If I have to travel further, and can opt for public transport, then I should do so. Not having any of these options, but if you can get an electric car, all the better, right? But, yes, transport is undoubtedly the issue …

Catarina Barreiros: The focus? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: … thus, the elementary lesson … 

Francisco Ferreira: In this aspect, I agree with Paula …

Ana Paula Mesquita: … now …

Francisco Ferreira: I also think this is crucial. 

Catarina Barreiros: Then … 

Francisco Ferreira: Having a travel pass, for example, to metropolitan areas, of 40 euros, I mean, just do the math. I think we have to do some calculations, because between using gentle mobility, that is, walking, riding a scooter, cycling, and using public transport, and using the automobile only for those lengthier travels, is already a considerable step forward. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. Given that both agree on this issue, I ask for tips to improve indoor air quality. To be distinct from …

Francisco Ferreira: For optimal indoor air quality, we can open the windows simultaneously for at least one minute in the morning, the least polluted time of the day. During the winter, maybe less, not to alter the energy efficiency of our houses. There is no need for more. Allow some airflow, then close again, run the shutters during summer or winter. That is to say …

Catarina Barreiros: Curtains for thermal comfort? 

Francisco Ferreira: To ensure the replacement of CO2, which accumulates during the night, and can remain indoors … Let's not forget that we spend 95% of our time in enclosed spaces. Maybe not inside our house. 

Catarina Barreiros: Nowadays, yes. 

Francisco Ferreira: Now, with the pandemic, yes. But, therefore, we should keep fundamental attention, not focusing only on the quality of the air outside but also on the quality of the air indoors.

Catarina Barreiros: Excellent!

Ana Paula Mesquita: I can suggest another tip. When I have to paint something, I always look for paint with low organic content and with volatile organic compounds … 

Francisco Ferreira: [expressing agreement.] 

Catarina Barreiros: How do we know this? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: All you have to do is to ask for paint with an aqueous base. It has no smell. So, if you want to paint a children's room, for example, it is essential to use paint that does not release any smell. Commonly, dangerous compounds release the smell, correct? Therefore, a paint with low content of …

Catarina Barreiros: It's even more pleasant, isn't it? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Much more pleasant. And they are long-lasting! I don't sell paints, but sincerely think …

Francisco Ferreira: Exactly. Yes, nowadays, they are as good as others. It's an obvious option, isn't it? 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. Therefore, paints wherein fewer volatile composites …

Ana Paula Mesquita: Yes. 

Catarina Barreiros: … are integrated. 

Francisco Ferreira: Exactly. 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Absolutely!

Catarina Barreiros: Ventilate the house, release the stale air, as the laypeople say. They call it stale air …

Francisco Ferreira: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: … the experts …

Ana Paula Mesquita: Not using much the fireplaces, although I love fireplaces …

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

Ana Paula Mesquita: It gives me peculiar pleasure to hear the crackling and observe the flames. It is beautiful! However, use it as little as possible …

Catarina Barreiros: What is the best alternative in this case? 

Ana Paula Mesquita: Electric heating is always an option. 

Catarina Barreiros: Electric heating?

Francisco Ferreira: No.

Ana Paula Mesquita: Or a heat pump, right? 

Francisco Ferreira: The heat pump is really the best alternative. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

Francisco Ferreira: In other words, when we talk about heat pumps, people often don't know what a heat pump is. Well, in the end, it is air conditioning. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Francisco Ferreira: In the end, it is an air conditioner. In Nordic countries, they say, "It's a heat pump for warmth and air conditioning for cooling." Here, we are talking about air conditioning, which basically functions to …

Catarina Barreiros: To warm-up and to …

Francisco Ferreira: … for heating and cooling down. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

Francisco Ferreira: But, I say again: It is more effective to take care of the houses' efficiency: with double windows, proper insulation for doors. These can be the most structuring measures to then economize in the use of these appliances.

Catarina Barreiros: And we have already recorded a whole episode on energy efficiency. 

Francisco Ferreira: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: Excellent! We have some tips to improve our indoor and outdoor air quality. Now, let's take a sigh of relief because, ultimately, not everything is frightening. And we know, however, that it is "Now or Never." 

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It's now or never! An EDP podcast that addresses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast "It's Now or Never" on Spotify or edp.com